Here is a link to a website that provides very broad boat motor information CLICK HERE  however it seems obsolete in 2015

     It constantly amazes me in the questions asked.  There appear to be some persons who, when it comes to boating, have no clue that the pointy end of the boat is the front.  And that most outboard motors prior to about 1990 were 2 cycle (meaning you need to mix oil in the gasoline).  Some have no idea of boating safety.  Others seem to think the value of their boat puts them at the head of the launch line, while in reality it appears their brain depreciates in reverse proportion to the boat's value.

   Some "shade-tree mechanics" just start tearing things apart with no clue as to what does what and then get on boating message boards asking for help so they can go boating the next day.  Another mentioned below said he is new to outboards, but has worked on many small engines, however can not figure out how to get the flywheel nut loose !!!!

   The ones that are overly hard to decipher are apparently from high school drop-outs, (flunking English) but that seem to have mastered cell phone texting.  No punctuation, one long sentence and they have not got any idea of what they are trying to ask as in describing even the part or the problem in any coherent language.

   One thing soon becomes rather obvious, is "Outboard motors do not die, their owners kill them".

   On the section below I have made an effort to edit the e-mail questions & responses so that the original question is at the start of the Q&A.  My response will be in blue.  Sometimes I do a separate answer while other times I just add my comments (which I do in bold blue letters) into the original question.  The questions by different persons will be separated by ****************.  I may alter the names or locations to protect me from slander as I do not alter the spelling, or punctuation.

 
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:56 AM
To: leeroysramblings.com
Subject: Tell tale hole

Sir, I have a 1984 SUZUKI DT 40 out board motor. Just installed new water pump kit. Everything went well. Then, just to do that one more thing, I ran a piece of thin wire into the tell tale hole. Well, as I was bringing the wire out. It got stuck and broke off. There is not enough to grab with pliers. Maybe about 3 inches left inside. I can see the wire at the inside of the tell tale hole. WHAT TO DO.? NEED HELP.!!

Bill
-------------------------------------------
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 6:45 AM
To: Bill
Subject: RE: Tell tale hole

I have never worked on one of those motors so am just guessing here.
When running in this condition does ANY water come out? This hole is only an indicator as to if your water pump is working, so it is not really critical to the rest of the motor’s operation if the flow is restricted.
Other than that it could mean a substantial tear down.

LeeRoy
--------------

Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 6:57 AM
To: leeroy@leeroysramblings.com
Subject: Tell tale

Didn't run motor. Afraid of maybe doing damage to the old girl.

Bill

***********************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:33 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: problem with 15hp Evinrude 85 model

I have leaking water around the shifter rod grommet and changed the water pickup tube grommet.  I tried the little hose that you show on your site that hooks up the water hose to the water pickup tube.   When you hook the water up to the water tube I get water out the pee hole really good but I also get a lot of water out of the middle exhaust housing I am not sure where it is coming out.

Is this supposed to happen or do I have another leak somewhere?  When I changed the water pickup tube grommet I greased it and put everything back together and still had water coming out of the shifter grommet.  This is with earmuffs on.   It did not come out at Idle but as I gave it gas and the RPMs came up the water started coming out of the shifter rod grommet.  Any ideas?

Tim

-----------------------------
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:45 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: problem with 15hp Evinrude 85 model

I suspect your garden hose has way to much pressure, you only need to open the valve enough to get some water flowing thru the motor.  Normal house water is at 50 to 60# while the motor is designed for about 5# at idle to 15# at high speed.  Also if you were not running it for long enough for the motor to warm up & the thermostat to open, then your only exit is out the small pee hole & not thru the complete motor.  This builds up a lot of pressure that the motor was not designed for.   With that much pressure, probably the lower grommet is also allowing water to be blown upward, which will then be diverted back down & out the middle exhaust housing hole.
 
I suspect everything is OK, just lessen the flow.
 
LeeRoy Wisner

**************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:10 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks for your astute information

To LeeRoy Wisner,

I am an amateur sail-boater. A couple of years ago I acquired a 1991 Johnson 9.9 Sailmaster electric that did not run. It came with the sailboat. I had a 6HP Mercury and decided I would use it until I fixed up the Johnson. The main problem is the 6 HP is too small especially in shallow rough water where I sail mostly.

I have just finished reading your 41 pages of Maintaining 9.9 & 15 hp 2-cycle and found several things (issues) that are likely problematic with my 9.9 Johnson. First, the 1991 carb leaked gasoline despite my attempted rebuild. Seems I have a 5 screw carb instead of 6 screws and it still leaks gas like crazy. The carb gaskets also does not seem seal proof. I will attempt to put in a 6th screw as you did and reset the gaskets and the proper float level. I did some initial work on the motor and then quit in order to think things over. The motor ran but not reliably - completely erratically. Had to use some ether to get it started. Hope the ether did not hurt anything.

The manual pull starter was unwound and every time I tried to fix it the main vertical bolt would come loose and the spring would pop. Your writings made me realize I need a Helicoil fix in the aluminum bolt assembly in addition to a new cord and spring. The previous owner must have overtourqued the main bolt.

The fuel hose had a pump ball with an arrow that pointed to the tank and not the motor. Unbelievable. He must have really been frustrated. I plan to replace the whole hose and ball.

I earlier rebuilt the fuel pump and hope it is working correctly although if it gets too much of a squeeze (pressure) from the gas tank squeeze pump it seems to leak some and a little plastic part sticks out. Which fuel pump do you have on that motor, it should be the new style larger one that is a lot easier to work on? The leak at the fuel pump could very well be a cracked plastic inlet cover, & or a bad or over tightened gasket, I see that many times.

Your Tutorial was simply outstanding for my use in that I found a lot of things nobody else would find. I think I know much more about what to do to help get the motor going at a steady pace. The spark is good although I have not checked the cylinder pressures yet.

I just had some outboard mechanics call me and tell me they could fix the motor in a jiffy at very little expense. After reading your comment you were completely correct that these folks are most likely full of BS, they need work right now, and if I had given the motor to them I would have lost a bundle which I don't have right now. And the results would be any body's guess.

Thanks Much,  Tom
Laurel, Maryland

P.S. I have a couple of questions if you have time to answer.

1. Am I better off sticking with www.crowleymarine.com for the best "rebuild" kits as their gaskets, etc should fit better? (the plastic gasket I got from a dealer for the fuel pump really did not fit worth a damn.) I have never had a problem with aftermarket kits, some gaskets like the powerhead to lower unit are not the right one however. I suspect your dealer grabbed a gasket using the part number from memory & was wrong.

2. When rebuilding the carb what dealer will give me all the parts like the the little carb hose inside that is needed? To get any internal carb parts you will probably have to to go to a Johnson/Evinrude dealer. That tube would be hard to substitute anything else as it has a slight dog-leg in it & in a slightly confined location. The part number for the idle tube in the 1991 parts manual for your carb is #336567, this may have been superseded, but at least that gives them a cross-reference. A used carb kit from the old boat owner was missing a new hose and the old hose leaked.

3. Is there any adhesive/glue to put around the outside of the carb and fuel pump mechanism that will help these devices not leak gas?
Not that I am aware of. It is best to cure the problem here than to try to patch it.

LeeRoy Wisner

----------------------
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:58 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: RE: Thanks for your astute information

LeeRoy,

Thanks for your quick reply. I will let you know how things turn out.

Tom

***********************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 9:17 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 1987 15 hp

G’day

I have a Johnson 15hp, 1987 model, which suffered a thermostat failure and consequent overheating and seizure.

From all the way down-under in Melbourne Australia, I have found your ‘OMC Ramblings’ invaluable as I have, without any real experience, stripped the motor down and replaced various gaskets and other parts. In particular, I have replaced the grommets at the top of the water inlet and outlet pipes, which had ‘melted’ practically shut. I have also had a marine mechanic look at the pressure in the cylinders, which I am told is ok. The mechanic also started the motor (before I had replaced the grommets) and said that it seemed ok but for the water flow- hence the grommets being replaced.

Having this weekend put the motor back together again and, with trepidation, pulled the starter cord, I am met with a motor that will occasionally ‘kick’, but won’t fire up. The spark plugs have been replaced, but not the coils and leads- I am working on the assumption that if the mechanic was able to get it started, these should be ok.

I have not replaced the fuel- which is probably 4 months old, but has been stored in a garage and in mild conditions.

Any ideas suggestions greatly appreciated.

Regards   Peter H

---------------------

Sent: Monday, 14 December 2009 3:16 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 1987 15 hp
 

Sounds as if it may be out of time, & since the timing is pretty well non-adjustable, & since you tore it apart, is there any chance that you happened to swap the coils, whereas  the mechanic tested it before you tore it apart?   Try to just swap the spark plug wires from the top to bottom/bottom to top & see if that helps. 

 

Other than that, advance the throttle position more than just the start position on the twist grip.  If the linkage has become worn/stretched this now "START" position may not be close to where it should be.  The motor will not start if it is set too slow, but will if it is advanced faster.

 

And fuel pumps normally last almost forever.

 

LeeRoy Wisner

-------------------

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 3:06 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 1987 15 hp

LeeRoy
You picked it right on (all the way from the other side of the world!)- I swapped the spark-plug wires over and advanced the throttle, and away it went. Thanks for your help. Needs a bit of a tune up but after the messing around it has suffered at my un-trained hands, that’s the least of the worries.

Thanks again  Regards

Peter H

*********************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:22 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: 9.9 EVINRUDE PUMPING PROBLEM


Hi LeeRoy:

Hey, great site you have on 9.9-15 hp Evinrude and Johnsons.......it's really a help.

I'm currently working on my 1977 Evinrude 9.9 hp.........after working perfectly in every regard it recently stopped pumping water thru the pee-hole and somewhat erratically through the exhaust/water outlet.............in view of it's age, I decided to check and replace the thermostat, which I did and everything in that area looked good........it had a little debris (pine needles, etc.) which I cleaned out.

Afterwards when I ran it (in a 55-gal barrel), it still wouldn't pump through the pee-hole but it pumped well and smoothly through the exhaust/water outlet located on the lower unit just below the main body of the engine...........it shows no sign of overheating and runs smoothly.

I've tried to clear the pee-hole using a piece of weed-eater cord (which works well), however, it won't go past the 90-degree elbow which leads into the main engine. I'm thinking about making an access hole like you recommend, but before I do that I just wanted to check with you to see if you think I'm on the right track. Also, it's my understanding that the pee-hole only provides a visible check on how well the pump is working and the fact that there's no water coming out of the pee-hole doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't adequate water circulation in the engine itself. Is that right?

Any advice you can give me will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks........   Mel

--------------------------------
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 6:38 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: 9.9 EVINRUDE PUMPING PROBLEM

Yes, you are right in that this pee hole as we refer to it is just a "overboard water indicator" as OMC describes it. So if the Ell is plugged at the water jacket cover AND there is water exiting the "Blubber Holes" on the rear AND the engine is not overheating, then in all probability the water pump is functioning. My access hole & screw plug is just a peace of mind situation for these old motors.

If you have access to an air compressor, you could hold the blow gun nozzle tight to the pee hole & possibly blow the blockage back, however it may reoccur.

Since you had debris in the thermostat, the same type of debris may well be the blockage at the pee hole Ell exit in the water cover jacket.

LeeRoy Wisner

--------------------------------

Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:17 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: 9.9 EVINRUDE PUMPING PROBLEM

Hi LeeRoy.....

Thanks for the prompt response and the useful comments. At this point I'm also reasonably certain that only the pee-hole is plugged and the rest of the water circulation system is functioning fine. However, the pee-hole does provide peace of mind when it's functioning properly, so I'd like to get it working. I'll try the air compressor method which might at least confirm our diagnosis, and if I get lucky it may even help clear the outlet.

Thanks again.......have a good day there.

Mel

***********************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 6:34 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: thanks

just picked up a 85 9.9 Evinrude your site is very informative answered all my questions would like to thank you very much for the time and effort you put in your site it is greatly appreciated!

 

thanks again Allen, Grass Valley C.A.

***********************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:51 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: thank you!


Just wanted to say thanks, you saved my engine from me..

 lenny r
***********************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:14 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks Heaps

I recently bought a 1981 12 ft. Sears Gamefisher semi V that came with a 1984 Johnson 9.9 SS tiller drive. Note I am new to boating and took it out with my girlfriend on Redhead Bay. Part of Backbay National Wildlife refuge. About a mile off the ramp the engine had reduced power. Having viewed your site the night before I noticed that the overboard water indicator outlet had little to no flow. I immediately shut the engine down. Took the cowling off and noticed the heat radiating off the block.

 

Let it sit for about 5 minutes with my girlfriend freaking out about the paddle back to the ramp. I then tilted the unit out of the water and noticed the seagrass around the intakes. I removed the grass from the lower unit and proceeded to start the engine again. The pee hole then started to spurt out water once again.  A bad experience that could have been much worse.  We continued on the water without incidence for two hours.

Thanks for the info and I will continue to reference your website for further knowledge about my engine.

Sincerely, BT

***********************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:20 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks

Casually an years old I've find your sheet on J-E motors. I'm very happy and desire thanks much for your work. With very clear notes I've solving much problem on this kind of outboards mine and of others friend, outboard that many dealers don't repair.

Thanks again for your passion!

Luciano- Italy

************************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:06 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: 9.9 Johnson

Hi,
I was wondering if you could answer a question for me about my 9.9 Johnson. It is a 1984 and when I got it, it was missing a red plastic piece on the throttle bar. I will attach a picture from you site and point the piece out. I was wondering what it is and what it is used for. Thanks so much for your site its been a huge help in working on my boat!

Best Regards,   -Chris

--------------------
Sent: Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM,
From: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: 9.9 Johnson

Please attach the photo

LeeRoy

-------------------
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:57 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: 9.9 Johnson

Sorry about that, I must have forgot. Here it is, thanks again
-Chris

-------------------

Sent: Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:49 PM,
From: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: 9.9 Johnson

OK what that is is a interlock that the factory has there to protect you from starting the motor in gear if the throttle is set at FAST. Many fishermen remove it so they do not have to change the throttle setting & shift back into neutral after killing the motor as in trolling/catching a fish & before they can restart the motor.

LeeRoy

------------------
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:00 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Re: 9.9 Johnson

Thanks a lot figured it wasn't too big a deal because the engine seem to run find with out it. Thanks again.
-Chris

**************************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:33 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: thrust mounts

Hi Leeroy
Thanks for updating your website with the new thrust-mount conversion, now to just convince my work to allow me to borrow their lathe

Many thanks    Peter W

Geophysical Engineer
Surtron Tech Pty Lt

************************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:45 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Evinrude 9.9

LeeRoy

Thank you for the all the information you have provided online about the OMC 9.9 engines. Today I just noticed there were more pages than this one. http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/Johnson%209.9_15.htm

My engine had been running like the carburetor was dirty so I removed and cleaned it. All I have been able to run it after the cleaning has been on the muffs but it seems fine now.

 

My engine is a 1990 9.9 Evinrude. I am writing to make a comment about removing the carburetor. Your article says the recoil starter must be removed to remove the nut holding the carburetor on that side. I did it without removing the recoil starter. Your instructions were followed up to the point of recoil starter removal. From that point I removed the plastic top of the carburetor. The clearance between the end of the carburetor stud and the throttle shaft area were to tight to allow the 12 point box end of a Craftsman combination wrench to enter. Using my pedestal grinder and a cup of water to keep the wrench cool I ground it just enough to fit the gap available. I hope this helps you. If you want a picture of the wrench please reply with that request.

Thank you    Richard

************************************************

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:39 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: thank you for the information

Dear Sir,

Thank you for posting information about the old 9.5 motors. I just bought a 1972 model mounted on a old sears 14 foot alum. boat for crabbing in the MD/DE area. I thought that it would be great for pulling my 14 year old son away from the computer games.

We took it out the first day and it ran for about three hours straight with no problems/ although i thought that it was not pushing the small/light boat as well as i expected.

Then about a week later (after I greased the fittings) I took it out again and it ran the same as the first trip for about 2 min. then stalled. it would run for awhile then stall, especially when put into gear- it was pumping water just fine but kept stalling

I did notice that the fuel line connection to the tank was pulling away just a little/ however it would idle fine so i don't think it was the fuel- but i will check it again since reading you post on the 9.9 model.

Anyway, thank you and i greatly appreciate you sharing your experience.

I hope to be crabbing again soon

take care,   Ed Smith

---------------------
Sent: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:16:36 -0700
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: thank you for the information

A leaky fuel line anywhere in the system would do it.

LeeRoy

-----------------
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 6:13 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: thank you for the information

thank you kindly for the reply. i checked the oil in the lower unit and a lot a water came out with just a small amount of oil................... looks like i messed things up. i flushed it with mineral spirits (like you suggested) and refilled with fresh. i was hoping that it will be a small leak and was going to take it out- run for awhile and recheck like you suggested. or perhaps it might be better to have it pressure tested first??? The guy i bought it from told me he did not use it for the last two seasons (but did run it once in a while???) anyhow i hope i did not destroy the lower unit by my mistake (always check oil - engine 101 :o) ) i know better- it did still going to gear prior to draining so perhaps I'll get lucky.

thanks again for you reply and please send me any suggestions that you feel might help.

Take Care,

Ed Smith

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:08 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 15hp info

Mr. LeeRoy Wisner - thank you so much for all the valuable info you have collected in your ramblings. I have read and enjoyed most of it. I fish for Salmon, and mostly Tuna and Dorado down south but have always wanted to try for Haliubut.

I have acquired an old 15hp 1983 rope start long shaft I want to use on my sailboat, and I have come across two interesting problems I wanted to share with you. I have description and photos in a pdf file I hope you can read. Feel free to use any of this in your writings anywhere. I will send more info as I discover it.

1) Water circulates the whole way thru the engine, but not the peehole, and the engine gets hot. There's a drilled hole in the sidejacket of the longshaft. Why?

2) If you modify the neutral safety lever and the timing plate slips you can have a runaway engine. Argh! As u noted it might not start, but it also might not stop.

Hope you enjoy the material. I would be most grateful if you could help me with solving #1.

Best wishes, Patrick

------------------
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 15hp info
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 20:41:24 -0700

The water to the pee hole comes from almost the first water into the block so will not be effected by the thermostat. I suspect you have a blockage at the Ell the pee hole line comes off the sideplate. Do you have access to a air compressor & possibly blow backwards thru the pee hole line? In one of my articles I mention/show how I drilled a hole in the side of the cowling to access the Ell & drilled & tapped a screw thread so I could poke out debris at this Ell, then plug the hole with a short screw.

As for the hole in the long-shaft extension, it is factory & is there to drain any water that accumulates so that it will not freeze during the winter. I notice there is water coming out of it in one of your photos. Is this water warm? It should be exhaust warm water from the engine, UNLESS someone has not assembled the water pump outlet tube grommet right, then it would be cold water & no or very little water is getting into the engine. Normally you do not see water coming out here because most people immerse it deeper. The lower unit also has a drain hole for the same reason.

As for the neutral safety stop, I have never heard of that. I suspect someone in cutting the plastic stop down did no go far enough & when you over-rode the stop, it was too hard to get back over by the twist grip leverage. The timing plate should not have come loose, it may have raised up enough to bypass however.

LeeRoy Wisner

-------------------
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:50 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 15hp info

Thanks.
I used your water pump rebuild notes about a flushing device.
Attached is photo of 3/4 to 3/8 hose adapter that has opened up the passage to the pee hole. At first the water pressure blew the hose pipe off the copper tube. I used wire coat hanger to unblock the copper pipe blockage. Now it flows free. Awesome.

Best, Patrick.

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Articles

I now have a great running 15 hp Johnson thanks to all your articles!!!! Each one has been very helpful and a step above anything else I have read!!

Thanks again   Brandon K

PS- Next step for me will be a mid 90s 20 hp mariner. Wish me luck.

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:41 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: rebuilding old OMC fuel pump


Thank you!!!!! I could not have gotten my engine running without this site.

Steve in Georgia

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 10:43 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks

I just wanted to say thanks for all the info on the Johnson 15 HP outboard. My grandpa gave me a 1978 Johnson 15 HP with a 12FT Hi-Laker boat. The outboard hadn't been run since 1989!

 

Thanks to your advice I was able to get the engine running without blowing it up. The first thing I did was pull the lower unit to replace the impeller only to find some salt corrosion, I followed it up to the block and ended up cleaning all the passage ways then replaced the thermostat and all the gaskets as well as rebuilding the carb.

 

 

Thanks to your info I was able to do this correctly. I made the mistake of buying a Seloc manual ($34) that covers about 30 years of Johnson/Evinrude outboards (it basically doesn't cover any part of my 1978 Johnson for some reason).

Again, Thanks   Sam S

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:50 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

Hi,

I really appreciate your sharing of boat motor repairs and experience and have learned a lot from your writings. I would appreciate any advice you
might have for my problem.

Last summer I bought a used 1985 Johnson 15hp motor (J15RCOB, SN E6049249) in Minnesota and have no history on it. I ran it a few times last summer, but never got it to run very well. I took it to a local marine repair shop to see what they could do. They went through it and got everything working pretty well, except for overheating. The powerhead quickily overheats (~1 minute) when run at anything above idle. The entire cooling system parts have been replaced, to no avail, and it still gets hot with the thermostat (new) removed. This mechanic (who has a wealth of experience and seems very knowledgeable) believes the problem is under the exhaust cover and I presume impaired water flow through the water jackets. He tried removing the bolts that hold the exhaust cover on, but quit before breaking them off. He did try heating the bolts a couple times, but decided to quit before he twisted them off. I now have the motor back and have the delimma of what to do next.

So, do you have any ideas about how to remove those stuck exhaust cover bolts with out twisting them off??? Supposing I force the issue and do twist them off, what is the next option? Any ideas or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Randy M
Wildlife Biologist
USFWS
P.O. Box 110
Lewistown, MT

--------------------
Sent: 05/04/2008 12:41 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject RE: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

First I would pull the head. With it off, you should be able to get some idea as to if it has any impairment, which may give some indication whether
the water jacket passages are also impaired.

Now I am having a time deciphering what you are calling the exhaust cover. The LH bypass cover does not get you into any water jacket. What I am assuming it being is the RH cover on the side of the block in front of the powerpack & behind the fuel pump. If so, your mechanic would not be able to take it off unless he removed the powerhead from the motor itself as there is one bolt UNDER the RH motor mount that is impossible to get to unless you are a triple elbowed Albanian dwarf with a wrench that is not invented yet.

If this is the cover you are referring to, you need to pull the powerhead to get it off. From there you can get to the all bolts. However since the
mechanic was hesitant in twisting them off, this would not be common with a freshwater motor. If there was any indication that they were frozen, I would (with the powerhead off) grind off the bolt heads as this will leave you enough of a stud to get hold of to remove, whereas if you twist them off you do not know where they will break at. I have found that the bolts are not usually frozen into the block threads, but corrosion is between the bolt body & the covers. If you get the bolt heads off, you can then tap on the cover, & pry the cover off of the then remaining bolt studs. From here you if you can not remove them with a Vise-Grip, you can soak the them with penetrating oil, & heat them up & try again. Usually, this will get them out. If they do twist off, you can buy a "Helicoil" kit, which you drill out the broken bolt, retap the hole oversize & insert a new stainless threaded type spring back to the original 1/4-20 threads.

How much water is coming out the Pee hole? Is it with full force & spraying out 2' or more or just water coming out? 3 things could be the culprit
here.

(1) The first is not really a problem if there may be some residue blocking just the Pee hole tube. I would take the overboard tube loose from the Ell
fitting on the cover & poke a small wire up inside while it is running. If there is much, it may take quite a few pokes to dislodge it & have it sprayed out. Sometimes small bugs crawl up there in winters. If this tube or outlet is plugged or partially plugged & the rest of the water system is
working OK, no big problem as the Pee hole overboard indicator only pulls off minimal water itself.

(2) Another is that possibly the mechanic did not replace the old water outlet grommet from the water pump outlet. Newer ones have been designed to make a better fit when the lower unit is slid back up & bolted in place while you can not really see the connection between the grommet & the copper water supply pipe into the motor.

(3) The other could be a swollen upper rubber seal at the copper tube & it's juncture with the powerhead. These can swell, & collapse inward, creating less flow into the motor itself.

If you have the powerhead off for the previous repair, you are very close to pulling the exhaust tube base which the copper tube is connected to. This tube comes in from the top & the flange is only held in by 4 or 5 bolts.

Let me know your findings

LeeRoy

---------------
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:27 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

LeeRoy,

Thanks for your response and ideas. I finally was able to talk to the mechanic that has worked on this motor to learn exactly everything he had tried. His first idea was also the head gasket, which he pulled and everything looked good, water jackets open, no sign of being run in salt water, etc. New head gasket, water pump impeller, grommets at both ends of water tube (top one was badly squished - which he hoped would solve the problem, but it didn't), new thermostat (and he even ran it without the thermostat and problem persisted). Re-assemble and stays cool at idle after running for 20+ minutes, but at higher RPMs, head gets too hot.  Tell-tale water flow seems adequate, at idle, weak stream, then at higher RPMs dwindles and was sproradic, I think ... at least it did before he started working on it with only exhaust coming out the tell-tale after a
while at higher RPMs and head getting too hot).

He is pretty confident the problem is not with the movement of water or the cooling system flow, but thinks about the only thing left that it could be is an exhaust gasket leak underneath the RH exhaust cover as you describe in paragraphs 2 and 3 below. His thought is that at the higher RPMs, there is enough of an exhaust gas leak to overpower the water flow and prevent its circulation through the water jacket. He thinks that if it was a head gasket problem, and with the higher pressures there, it would have to also overheat at idle, but it doesn't. He has had the powerhead off 3 times, and had a bad feeling about the potential for twisting those exhaust cover bolts off, then having to resort to an easy-out or drill out, slipping and drilling into the aluminum with a final result of giving me back a boat anchor.

I appreciate his caution, and giving me the opportunity to decide if I want to proceed, full well understanding the risk and potential outcome. What do you think, correct diagnosis? and worth the risk? Doesn't do me much good the way it is. Any other ideas for removing stuck bolts other than heat, shock with hammer/punch, maybe dry ice on bolt head? I'll pass along your idea about grinding the bolt heads off.

As for your suggestions below, No. 1 - not a problem with blockage there. No. 2 - yes new grommet installed, No. 3 - yes new grommet installed, old one was buggered up, but overheating symptoms remain.

Thanks!  Randy

----------------
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2008 5:58 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

It has me scratching my head as if he did all that he said, most of the areas are covered. Pull the lower unit, pull the thermostat, & attach a
garden hose somehow to the water inlet tube from the water pump. See just how much water is flowing.

If that is not conclusive, I would pull the powerhead, grind the bolt heads off on the water jacket cover & go from there. Then you can be sure the
jacket is clear.

LeeRoy

----------------
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:50 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

Hi LeeRoy,

Well, here it is over a year later since we last e-mailed, and I think I am now a couple days smarter (I'm a slow learner) after finally getting up the gumption to tear into this 1985 15 HP Johnson outboard boat motor (J15RCOB, and yes, it is now in many pieces on the workbench). I think I've figured out the overheating problem and will explain shortly, then I have a few questions on re-assembly at the end. To recap: my local boat motor repair man replaced the normal water pump impeller, intake grommet, checked head gasket, etc., but still, the motor overheated above idle. His last hunch was a blocked water jacket that could only be viewed after removing the exhaust cover, but the bolts were frozen, he tried one with my concurrence, twisted it off, then gave me back my "boat anchor".

My focus to recover this "boat anchor" was on getting that exhaust cover off, and once done, I figured the problem would be obvious. So, I ground off the bolts heads, removed the cover and the inner plate to find absolutely no signs of blockage ... everything very clear. Yes, now I am more puzzled than ever. Then, upon examination of the rubber grommet on the SHORT copper tubing that returns the used cooling water (post-thermostat) attached to the exhaust pipe (visible for inspection once I removed the powerhead), it was not replaced by my repairman and was obviously swelled, expanded and deformed and I think this is the culprit (I can send you a picture later if useful, but my digital camera is currently elsewhere). Delivery of water to cool and passages were all fine, but the exit was constricted. What do you think?, Sounds like it very well could be the problem, I have never run into it but makes sense. Yes I would like a clear close-up photo of the blockage to add to my article if possible. consistent with an overheating problem at above idle RPMs and no obvious water jacket blockage problems?

With my focus on the exhaust cover and the stuck bolts ... terrible, I've never seen anything like these ... I was able to finally extract 6 of the 8 (using heat, vise grips, punches/hammers, penetrating oil, etc.), but 2 remained stubborn, including one that broke off flush, I drilled it out, tried an easy-out that promptly broke off flush too! (%$*%^&). So, my next stop next week is to our local machine shop to extract the last 2 bolt fragments that I can't get out. He is a pretty good guy and I'm confident he will be able to extract these 2 bolt fragments, and then I can proceed with reassembly.

So, my questions on re-assembly:

for all gaskets ... use dry as supplied?, or also use a Permatex product (blue or red) also, or something else?  The gaskets seem to usually have a self adhesive backing on one side.   Upon disassebly, I "succeeded" in making some gouges on the faces of the aluminum parts getting them apart and would rather not have to purchase new exhaust housing components ($55 and $44 each). If they are deep, purchase a J-B Weld kit which is a metal filled epoxy. fill it in & file smooth. Goes for all surfaces ... what are your recommendations on sealing mating surfcaes and use of sealants vs. dry gaskets only? Sometimes I use Permatex, (the non-hardening type).

Drive shaft ... what is recommended for cleaning/reassembly/lubrication to add? Just clean with a rag or steel-wool. Be sure to add a little wheel bearing grease on the upper splines that go into the crankshaft. Someone down the road may want to take it apart.

Now that everything is apart ... would appreciate your recommendations on cleaning/maintenance/lubrication things to perform now and products to use.  I just clean the debris off & let it go at that, or repaint it.

Lower unit, now that it is off, anything to maintaine/lube/fix since it is already off? Just check the oil level & be sure the water pump outlet grommet is in the pump outlet, lightly grease the tube end before you try to insert it into the grommet.

LeeRoy, YOU ARE AWESOME!!!! I really appreciate your TIME, and effort to put into making your practical knowledge and experience available for the rest of us to benefit from.

Randy

-----------------
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:58 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: 1985 Johnson 15 hp cooling problems

Hi,

Here are a couple pictures. The repair shop replaced in the water inlet grommet, but not the outlet so although I think the new impeller and pumping system/water jackets were all fine and had water out the pee hole, it still overheated above idle as the water couldn't get out. Still waiting on the machine shop guy to try on the stuck bolts in the block. Hopefully he will succeed and I can resurrect this "boat anchor".
 

Shown below are good & bad water tube grommets under the powerhead

Randy

*******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:10 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: THROTTLE RETROFIT

I read your article and it was very helpful. I have a problem I’m trying to solve I thought you might be able to advise me on. I have a Johnson 9.9 Sail-Master with the long shaft. I believe it is a 1984 although I’m not positive of the year. I use it to power my 1984 Catalina 25 sailboat. I got the motor with a previous 21 ft boat I had and liked it so much when I sold the 21 I kept this motor and sold the 7.5 that came with the Catalina. When the motor was mounted on the 21 footer the transom was low enough that the tiller handle could be lowered to it’s full horizontal position and not be a problem. However the Catalina has a much higher transom and on this boat the handle can’t be lowered to it correct position without hitting the transom. Because of this conflict the throttle gears don’t mesh fully as your describe in your article. The teeth skip and jump time. Below is the section of your article having to do with my problem.

These motors were designed to be also used with remote controls. There appears to have been 2 different OMC "Remote Control Adapter Kits. (1) #386660 & (2) # 398032. These kits are only the adapters to the motor & did not include the cables or control lever box. The throttle cable is ran thru the hole that normally is occupied by the kill button, & is attached to a peg located on the timing plate linkage rod. On #398032, the kill button is moved over into the position under the RH front lower upper cowling where the starter button would have been. The starter button is not be used in this case as if it was electric start, the starter switch would have been on the shift/throttle control box. The #386660 kit is pictured below with it's illustrated installation sheet. Here the kill button is moved to a new aluminum bracket that is bolted into the 2 existing holes on the front.

The throttle cable was ran under the manual starter spool & attached to the peg on the vertical control shaft to the timing plate. The twist grip handle was designed to be lifted into the up position, which disengaged the cog teeth of the drive gears, allowing the cable to function without removing the twist grip unit. This however creates problems when the motor is not operated with cables if the operator is unaware of the situation, as described later in this article. The angle that the tiller handle is mounted on the upper housing allows the handle to tip out & away from the motor for clearance. If you snap the rubber cover off, & raise the handle, you can see that the higher the handle is raised the farther disengaged the gears become as the throttle handle's twist shaft is not on the same plane as the intermediate shaft that the mating gear is on.

I saw a boat at the docks a while back that had corrected their problem by retrofitting the unit with a throttle lever and cable system. The lever was mounted to the riser section of the cockpit seat of the boat on the starboard side. The cable then routed back to the motor and was attached to the throttle linkage, eliminating the need for the tiller throttle. I think this is probably the best solution to the problem. Before reading your article I purchased a TeleFlex-Morse control head I believe will work perfectly. Along with it I bought the control cable (6ft) and connector kit matched to the control head by Teleflex. Mounting the control head should not be a problem as it is a very straight forward and simple mechanism that I should be able to locate where I need it placed. The part of the process I could use your advice with is on the motor throttle connection. I read in your article that Johnson had made a conversion kit for this purpose. I’m wondering if the kit is an absolute necessity or if I can make the attachment without it? I think I see where the cable attachment should be made but I’m not sure. I’m also wondering about routing the cable into the motor. Above you describe The throttle cable is ran thru the hole that normally is occupied by the kill button, & is attached to a peg located on the timing plate linkage rod. Can you elaborate on this for me in any way that might be helpful?

Any input you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

If the control adapter kits are necessary could you suggest a source?

John Van H

------------------
From: Twin Pine
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: THROTTLE RETROFIT

Since your sailboat has it's own rudder, you do not really need the tiller to steer with so your observation of the other boat you saw would be a valid way to go. And since you already have most of the parts you are almost there. I have never actually seem one of these kit attachments so do not know just what it takes to attach the throttle outer cable end to the motor. The inner cable end would go over the "knob" on the inner lower linkage unit. I am sure something could be figured out.

The kill button (or another momentary ON switch) could be placed near the new throttle lever by extending the wires. This kill button just grounds out the electronics.

These kits may not even be available thru marine dealers anymore, however I have seen them advertised on eBay. However you would be purchasing the whole kit for just a small portion of it. If in doubt go to a marine dealer & seek advise.

Another option is to find a 87 or newer which would have the cable type twist throttle. However trying to find a used Sail-Master may take some doing. It would be easier to find a newer cable type throttle motor (87-92) & swap lower units (including extra longshaft extension & driveshaft) & then sell a now 84 shortshaft motor.

LeeRoy Wisner

**********************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:59 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject:  thank you.


I found your fantastic information about my ancient 15 Johnson.......very little use, but it sat for 25 years. Decided to fire it up and presto, started on 3 pull and is running great but now I notice some grey sludge that seeps out of the exhaust holes in the lower end. I had not noticed it before.........so I did a bunch of googling and came up with your extensive contributions. It has some issues I don't yet understand but I am sure by the time I get finished with your stuff I'll have a much better idea of what is happening.

Thank you so much, it is obvious you have contributed a huge amount of time and thought into this collection of information------------and I really appreciate it.

Sincerely   Bill
Hamilton, MT

**********************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 5:51 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks a million!


Your Johnson 9.9 repair articles have been of great help in my fixing a cooling problem in my 1978 9.9 long shaft motor, which I have owned since new.
 
Since it is the auxiliary on our 25' sailboat, it has been very lightly used (we rarely burn more than 4 - 5 gallons of fuel/year), but it is showing its age, and I had to replace the grommets on the water supply tube between pump and powerhead, as no water was reaching the engine. I couldn't have done it without your help.  
 
I don't know what your motivation was to produce such a compressive and well illustrated work, but I'm sure grateful to you for doing so.
 
Thanks again,  Ed E  
Woodstock, IL.

***********************************************

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:13 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks for your rewriting of your articles

I'm sorry I had so many requests and I am fortunate that your previous articles were helpful and I keep on working at the problem until I feel I am close to getting it fixed as I just kept on plugging away at the problem. I do believe that I am close to the solution and I am now back to just repairing the water pump and I will OK. I am taking the boat into the boat mechanic that worked on it last year and have them look over the pump to see if they have any warranty on their work or at least address the issue of putting in the wrong grommet that came in the rebuild kit.

I have learned a lot this year working on my engine, reading your site and my SELOC repair manual. Last year I could not do the work because I have cancer and the cancer treatments were rigorous.

If you know how to obtain a specific repair manual for a specific Johnson motor I would be interested in getting one.

Thanks again
MR

----------------
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:37 PM
To: Mike R
Subject: RE: water pump / upper grommet in exhaust water tube

With your numerous recent requests, instead of reading each & digesting your potential problems, then researching & answering each, I looked at my article on water circulation problems http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/water_circulation.htm  & rewrote it including more photos.

I apparently got you on the right track early on & got the motor running, but now you seem to have more questions than I am willing to try to answer.

Sorry if I have failed your expectations, but of the many of these type of inquiries I get each week, after a while I get bogged down. So I felt it better to redo the article & try to let you better understand what may be wrong.

LeeRoy Wisner

**************************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:43 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Problem - Help please
 
I have a 1989 Johnson 10HP outboard with at 15HP carburetor that was put on by the previous owner. See the following link (carburetor parts and carburetor kit 44).

I rebuilt the carburetor last year and then had some electrical problems and  took it in for service, they stated they had to adjust the carburetor in addition to fixing a short in a wire that was preventing the engine from starting.
 
This year I took it out to test the engine before taking it out and I noticed I am having the exact same problem that you have described below on your web page. See below:

 If when starting, you can keep pumping the primer bulb & it does not become hard after about 3 or 4 pumps, & then fuel starts running out around the motor's lower cowling, the most likely thing wrong would be the carburetor's float needle valve is not shutting off when the bowl is full.   The motor may well run, but could flood out if the fuel pump supplies more fuel than the motor can handle.
 
I don't want to rebuild the whole carburetor again if I don't have to. Do you think you could tell me what part number form the web link (ishopmarine.com), I would need to replace, or adjust, i.e. if you think that can be done without rebuilding the whole carburetor.

Thank you   Mike R

-------------------------
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:44 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Problem - Help please

 I do not think you need any new parts if you rebuilt it last year, just take it apart, inspect & clean the old parts.  Did you purchase a carb repair kit last year?  If so in there somewhere should have been instructions on how to adjust the float, or as per my instructions below.

 "When reassembling, place the float back in position & replace the cross pin.  Tip the unit upside down & check the float height.  The now upside down unit should have the top of the float parallel with the now top of the housing.  If not, you can adjust it by bending the metal tab that acts as a stop for the float.  Be sure that the float can move up & down freely, otherwise if it binds, the motor may run at different speeds depending on how much your boat is tipped to one side or the other."
 
Also it could have some debris under the float needle & between the float seat which could be not allowing the float to shut off the fuel being pumped into the carb.

 LeeRoy Wisner

---------------------------
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:03 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Problem - Help please

Thanks for you speedy reply. I took the boat out for a spin just to see if there was a possible chance that the carburetor would clean it self out. The engine started fine and was running smooth until I approached the speed zone and I gave it the throttle. When I did, the engine began to have loss of power and eventually died. I tried restarting it and the engine would not turn over. I checked any fuses that I thought would be a possibility. No bad fuses were found. My batteries are new and connections are secure. When I got it home, I tried to start it and I could hear the click coming from the solenoid and thats all. It appears that I have two separate problems, the carburetor and now an electrical problem. Since it does not even turn over, what do you think could be the possible causes? Solenoid, starter or other.

Any help is appreciated.   MR

---------------------------
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:28 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Water pump issue - please help

I have a 1989 9.9 HP Johnson engine, with a carburetor that was put on to make it equivalent to a 15HP motor a few years later. The carburetor is the plastic bowl type and was probably put on in 1992 model, because according to the iboats.com website the diagram shows the carburetor with the Cam Follower lever is made of plastic and an O-ring is used to hold it onto the carb. body. I purchased the boat around 1995. Last year I rebuilt the carburetor and had a local shop adjust it for me, while they did some other work. This year I was testing it out and before I took it out and noticed gas leak out as I primed the bulb. You instructed me to check the carb. for dirt and/or adjust the float. I did both. I thought i did see some dirt while I cleaning it in the float valve seat assembly. I used carb cleaner and air to clean up the car and I slightly adjusted the float using the metal tab according to your instructions. That took care of the gas
leakage problem. Now when I prime the bulb it gets firm.

I had the boat out once since then and it seem to run fine. As I was coming in from the lake the engine was having trouble staying on at idle. I had no success getting it to idle so I tried to adjust the idle. According to my instructions, being an electric start model, the throttle cable adjustment must be remove prior to any adjustment. Once the engine is idled properly, then the throttle cable can be reconnected.

The only two things to adjust on this carb is the slow speed idle screw, which I did not touch since it was set by the mechanic last year and throttle stop screw which I did play with. There is a cam follower screw adjustment which I know is used to make sure the roller is touching the cam during synchronization.

Anyways, once I have the engine running to some degree, it sounds good and then dies. I do notice when I have it running and then try to mannually give it throttle by either advancing the throttle arm or by pushing down on the cam follower lever, the enngine will die. While I was on the lake the day before, I did not notice any problem with the engine dying while giving it the throttle.

My first thought, since I can not get the engine to idle well at all is that I am back to a carburetor problem.

My second thought is that when I give it some throttle and it dies then it is either a carburetor problem or possibly a fuel pump problem.

If you have any thoughts that could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

I thought that you mentioned a troubleshooting web page that you have. If so could you give me the link.

In the mean time I have Johnson 1971-1989 Outboard Repair Manual by SELOC that I will look in to see if it can give me any clues. It seems to be helpful on some repairs buy not so good at finding the cause so that you can repair it.

Thanks   MR

-----------------------
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:03 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: water pump

Well I finally got my motor running and it sounded pretty good, however I noticed no water coming from the water pump so I shut her down. I had the lower unit in a barrel. Before that I was testing it using the plastic ear covers and hose and it may have been during that process that I neglected to turn on the water and damaged the pump.

If I find out that my pump is not pumping water and needs repair, what do I need to replace. The water pump was rebuilt with a kit last year and I was wondering if I could get by with just replacing the impeller only.

What are your thoughts?

Also in your last email you had a file attached to it called winmail.dat (4KB), but I could not open it. Can you tell me which program opens this file.

Thanks   MR
-------------------------
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:37 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: grommet under power head

Hello,

I have a problem that I hope you can help me with. My Johnson 10HP is not pumping water. Model J10ELCES. This engine has never been in salt water. Last year I replaced the water pump and when I took my boat in for service to fix an engine no-start problem (short in kill switch) the mechanic stated that it was not pumping water properly so I thought that there may have been a problem with my installation. He said that there were wrong parts in the pump. He repaired it and it worked so I didn't question him, however, my records show I purchased kit 394711 for this motor which is the correct one.

Since the repair I have had the boat in the water three times. When I was checking it this year, before going out I noticed the pump had failed. It was working for awhile in the driveway using muffs and garden hose, so I assume that there is no clogging in the pee hole.

Since the pump failed, I decided to break it down and look. I looked at the pump and decided to compare it to the old pump (original pump since 1989), which I had kept for some reason. Well the pump in the unit is different in two ways that I notice. First the water pump housing is different, but this is to be expected because according to my information the part no. was changed from 391571 to 435390 (OMC water pump kit complete #394711). When I installed the pump, I remember that the housing was different and the kit came with two short bolts to replace the two longer bolts in the old housing style.

This kit comes with three different style grommets. I noticed that the grommet that is in the water pump now is different from the grommet in the original water pump that I saved. No replacement number for this part is mentioned. Therefore, I now question the mechanic who said that I had the wrong parts in it. However, the only difference now between his installation and the original pump is the housing style and the grommet he installed. Since I have the original pump, I am assuming that I put in the exact grommet in the kit that matched. Whether he replaced all the other parts that I had just replaced I don't know the answer to that.

Upon inspection of the water pump that I just took off, I can find no visable signs of damage to the impeller. This pump has the metal impeller housing cup which looks new and clean.

So here is my question:

1. Besides a plugged pee hole and bad water pump, is there anything else in this engine that would prevent water from circulating that could be my problem?

2. If the mechanic used the wrong grommet of the three in the kit, could this cause water from not being circulated? I would like to take my original pump in and show him the one he put in if this is the cause?

3. Should I be able to visibly see damage to my impeller or could it look in good condition and still not work. I did notice that the impeller rotation in the housing is the same as the original pump. But I see no damage to the rubber ends of the impeller.

4. Since your website points out that a water pump can be ruined, if run only minutes without flow, it may have went bad while I was testing it out in my drive way. So if the grommet or other cause is not my problem do you think just replacing the impeller, rather than a whole new kit could solve the problem?

Thank you,   MR

-------------------------
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 3:28 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: water pump / upper grommet in exhaust water tube

My Johnson 9.9 has two upper grommets and I inspected them as I separated the exhausting housing just enough from the power head to see their condition. They both looked fine. While I had the lower section off, I hooked up a hose to the bottom of the copper inlet water tube that fits into the grommet of the water pump and turned on the hose. Water came out of the pee hole, no clog, however a stream of water was running down the copper water tube. It turns out that there is a pin hole size hole in my water tube. At first I thought that this was the problem to my no water circulation when running the motor, but a mechanic told me that that small hole should not be the cause of my problem and that I should just take a little permatex and dab over the hole if I didn't want it to leak.

Is he right?

Since, he says that this is not my problem, I am back to assuming it is the water pump. I looked at the water pump and I notice two things.

1) the grommet in the water pump is not the same as my original (it was rebuilt last year by a local boat shop). I keep the old water pump and that is why I know. However, the boat shop that did the installation stated that the wrong grommet would not be the cause of my water circulation problem, but it could cause the engine to overheat.

Is he right?

2). The impeller in the stainless steal cup that inserts into the plastic housing is not centered quite right. By that, I mean as you visibly look at it while in the cup with the ends rotated, one side of the impeller is closer to one side than the other. I dont know if that is OK or not, or normal, but when I look at my original pump, that was put in in 1989 the impeller in the cup is perfectly centered.

Do you think any of my observations would be the cause of my problem?

Thanks,    MR

--------------------------
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 6:19 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: changing the upper water tube grommet

All I want to do is inspect/change my uper water tube grommet on my 9.9 HP Johnson, J10ELCES motor. I am reading your section on Powehead/Midsection.

1. In order to change this grommet do I actually have to take the power head off? Cant I remove the required bolts and drop the mid section/exhaust housing down while leaving the power head in the cover or do I have to lift the power head out to get to this grommet?

2. I have removed the 6 bolts that hold the powerhead to the exhaust housing. I see the 3 motor mount bolts that you mention, but those bolts mount the power head to the lower engine cover. It does not seem like I would need to remove these bolts and the power head to get to the grommet. It looks like I should be able to remove the 6 bolts on the exhaust housing and slide the housing off from the powerhead. Am I right?

3. As it sits now, I tried to lift the engine off the steering bracket, thinking that I could then remove the exhaust housing while it is off. I used WD40 and sprayed into the area where the housing sets on the bracket to loosen it up and it seem lose but it will not lift off. The other problem that I can see as a potential problem, if I were to lift the engine off the steering bracket is that the shift rod extends down through the gasket into the housing and if I pull the engine off and drop it down, I would have to be careful not to damage or bend the rod. Do I need to remove the rod first before lifting the engine off the steering bracket? If so, how would I do that?

Sorry about so many questions, but I do have a SELOC repair manual which does not cover any of these types of procedures and it if frustrating when you pay $40 and don't get any information on removing the mid section.

Any help is appreciated.    MR

-----------------------------
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 3:28 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: water pump / upper grommet in exhaust water tube

My Johnson 9.9 has two upper grommets and I inspected them as I separated the exhausting housing just enough from the power head to see their condition. They both looked fine. While I had the lower section off, I hooked up a hose to the bottom of the copper inlet water tube that fits into the grommet of the water pump and turned on the hose. Water came out of the pee hole, no clog, however a stream of water was running down the copper water tube. It turns out that there is a pin hole size hole in my water tube. At first I thought that this was the problem to my no water circulation when running the motor, but a mechanic told me that that small hole should not be the cause of my problem and that I should just take a little permatex and dab over the hole if I didn't want it to leak.

Is he right?

Since, he says that this is not my problem, I am back to assuming it is the water pump. I looked at the water pump and I notice two things.

1) the grommet in the water pump is not the same as my original (it was rebuilt last year by a local boat shop). I keep the old water pump and that is why I know. However, the boat shop that did the installation stated that the wrong grommet would not be the cause of my water circulation problem, but it could cause the engine to overheat.

Is he right?

2). The impeller in the stainless steal cup that inserts into the plastic housing is not centered quite right. By that, I mean as you visibly look at it while in the cup with the ends rotated, one side of the impeller is closer to one side than the other. I dont know if that is OK or not, or normal, but when I look at my original pump, that was put in in 1989 the impeller in the cup is perfectly centered.

Do you think any of my observations would be the cause of my problem?

Thanks,    MR

***************************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:13 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: 16 January

Robin
----------------------------------
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:52 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: 16 January
 

I would be hesitant in believing this business as I am not sure that they understand measuring of the venturi, & just the carb throat dia. where it fits the manifold.  The venturi is in the middle of the carb & hard to measure without internal long reach type calipers.  The 9.9 hp carburetor’s internal venturi throat is .625 dia., whereas the 15 hp internal venturi throat is .875 dia. up until late 1987 when they went to a plastic topped carburetor.  I have not had a 15 new plastic type top carb in my hands to measure so do not know if the venturi is the same.   The outlet or rear throat dia. is 1.00" the same on both to match the manifold port dia.   The idle jet venturi system is also slightly different between the two hp sizes.

 

e-Bay Item number: 180318189285  may well be a 15 if he took it off a 15hp

 

However item number: 170291663104  is probably not a 15hp carb.  Look at the tag it, says 9.9   with a date of 08-81

 

The above carbs are apparently off motors from 1974 to mid year 1987 & the one you are keeping & wanting to convert is a 1991

 

I have a rebuilt 15 hp carb off about a 1978 motor that I would sell for less than they want but not sure it will function as explained above, however you might be able to interchange the timing plate cam roller & make it function.???  Maybe someday when I get all the honey-do & my projects caught up I may see if it will interchange.

 

If I were you I would try to find a different prop, you probably now have the standard 9" X 10" (it should be stamped on the prop itself) & on a heavy boat it will not allow your engine to rev up to it's full potential (be lugged down).  I would look for a 10" X 7" or a 10" X 5" which are work-horse type props for a heavy boat. This would be cheaper than going to a bigger carb.  However you may have to look at a lot on e-Bay as they are not as plentiful.  If it did not work as you need then you have at least raised the rpm enough to gain the full potential of the 9.9 & you might have to go to that prop anyway because of the HEAVY boat.  Then if you need more, try for a 15hp carb in addition to the prop. 

The 1991 OMC parts manual lists the following aluminum 3 blade props--  9" X 10",  9"X 11",   9 1/4" X 8",  9 1/2" X 10",  10" X 5",  10" X 7", & a stainless in 9 3/8" x 9"

 

Shown below is a carb you need on the left off a mid year 1987 to 1992 motor.  They have a plastic top & bottom.  On the right is one that they have for sale off a 1974 to about mid year 1987.  I have not tried to use a older all metal carb on a newer motor that uses a plastic top.  The linkage lever/cam may be slightly different & not sure just how it would function as for timing
 

This is what you need	This is the style they have for sale

 

***********************************
----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed, January 14, 2009
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Evinrude 15 question

There are carburetor 2 butterflies, one the main throttle & the choke.  Both have a couple of small holes in the bottom to allow a slight amount of air to pass thru.  The throttle one will be closed at an idle because the idle fuel is being diverted behind the butterfly & since it is just idling needs very little air mixture. The mainjet fuel comes into the throat at a different location (at the venturi creating a pull on the fuel as the RPM increases) & needs to be blended with the air to achieve a smooth higher speed as the timing plate is advanced. That is why a 9.9 has a smaller internal venturi dia. than the 15 HP as the 15 gains it's increased HP by being able to add more air to the richer fuel mixture, therefore gaining another 1000 RPM.

thanks    Brian
----------------------
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009
From: Twin Pine
Subject: question about 9.9

They may be right, but I think they are looking for work & hope to cure it with a tear down, as that price should be near a complete rebuild price & where they may well find other things they have already added to the billing list.
 
#1 the most likely area for a air leak is in the intake manifold area. There are 2 gaskets, one at the powerhead & another just on the other side of the reed valve plate about 3/16" from the other one. These gaskets are made of a asbestos type paper & may have some sealant on them. There is another thicker gasket between the carburetor & the intake manifold. There could be a small leak in any of these. I have never seen one break because old old age as they are stuck so tight to the metal that you can not salvage them on a tear down.
 
A simple way of finding a leak here is to with the cowling & the carburetor breather off, get the motor running. Then get a can of spray WD-40. Spray this on any of these gaskets while it is running, IF the motor speeds up, you have found the leaky area as this WD-40 will burn & when it is sucked into the motor, as it replaces the air that was leaking in. You could isolate the LEAK, clean it up & smear some epoxy over the area sealing it. May not look great but it should solve the problem if that is it.
 
The only other block leakage location is between the 2 halves of the block, but these are a machined mating aluminum surface & the sealant is a thin rubbery type that should never cause a problem unless someone tore it apart & used the wrong sealant.
 
There is another location that a leak could be & that is the gasket, (same asbestos type) under the fuel pump. This is a simple fix by buying a new gasket & the fuel pump is held in place by 2 screws. A air leak could also be anywhere in the fuel line system.
 
Another possible air leak location is in the upper crankshaft seal if it gets worn. Here you will usually see a oily mess under the timing plate after the flywheel is removed. This seal can be replaced without tearing the whole motor apart however. There is one way to temporarily solve this problem if that is the case is to with the timing plate off where you can see this seal around the crankshaft, is to pour a little of the STP sticky oil treatment on top of this seal. This treatment oil is thick & sticky enough that it will seal any air leakage for a while.

They could also be referring to a leaky head gasket, but I doubt it. Here it could let water into the cylinder, or let compression from one cylinder into the other cylinder if the leak was in the exact location, either way may not good for the running of an engine. Again this is a doable thing to replace this head-gasket without tearing the whole powerhead off the midsection.
 
The carburetor may also need cleaning as small dirt partially plugging the jets can cause problems.
 
Check your spark plugs.

LeeRoy

----------------
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: question about 9.9

I'll try your suggestions next chance I get in this Pittsburgh weather. Thanks for the advice! Brian

  Brian

******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Fuel pump

First, thank you for making the rebuild info available. Unfortunately, for me, I didn't know it existed until after I tore the old one apart to replace with a kit. (it would help if my fingers were the size of a 10 year old girl!!) As you can imagine, 2 springs from someplace flew out and I was in deep doo-doo!! Anyway, after about 6 tries, I ran the blow test. I definitely could not blow though Outlet C, and could blow in Inlet A by mouth with difficulty. I also got a little "buzz" sound when air passed through from A. Question-- does this sound normal or should blowing through inlet A be easy. If it sounds like I still have a problem, can you tell me the likely culprit? he air dome spring placement seemed a little tenuous but I thought I finally did it OK.

Thanks for whatever help, advice, etc.
Hugh

---------------
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:16 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Fuel pump

The info I reprinted on the website was exact off of OMC repair kit instructions. I can remember when I did my first one without any info, boy was I lost. That is when I bought a factory kit just so I could find out the procedure.
 
I just went out into the shop & found a old fuel pump. I can blow thru "A" without any restriction. From my past experience, I think I tore mine apart about 6 times before I got it to function, (not reassembled right). And it needs to be done on a kitchen table with no carpet on the floor & with helping hands from a helper & at times a set of tweezers.
 
LeeRoy Wisner

*****************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008
To: Twin Pine
Subject: rubbery powerhead movement

could you tell me what is the acceptable movement of the powerhead? I have a lot of movement side to side and also front to back. I was watching the other day while I was accelerating and the motor was moving front to back while accelerating. If I need to replace the thrust bushings can you tell me what all gaskets I need to get because I guess if they need replacing I will need to pull the powerhead.

tim

--------------------
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: rubbery powerhead movement

You do not mention the make/model or what you are working on, but by the e-mail that you sent this to I can assume it is an OMC 9.9 or 15hp outboard motor.
 
Movement should be minimal. As the upper thrust mounts are a rubber anti-vibration connection between the pivot shaft unit & the clamp base. If the rubber mounts are broken / unbonded from their attachments there will normally be more forward/aft movement than lateral movement simply because of the way the mounts are made.  Usually only the upper mounts go bad &  the lower rubber mounts are OK (these lower ones do not need the powerhead to be removed).
 
Again you do not mention the year of this motor, but I am assuming it is between 1974 & 1992 as the later ones were made differently & not as prone to breakage. The only gasket you should need is the one between the powerhead & the exhaust housing ("Gasket, powerhead to exhaust housing" #322161). This number may have been superseded as the number I an supplying is taken from a 1978 parts book. The upper mount assembly is #386033 & you will need 2 of these, which are not cheap anymore. Also if these mounts go bad the upper rubber seal unit will normal also be cracked to where you will be getting exhaust gasses blowing out between the 2 housings. If it is really bad, you will also be getting excess exhaust noise there & many times black oil coming out there also. This one seal is #318989 & seals both mounts.
 
If your motor is a 1993 to 2007 the upper mounts will be different but the gasket is the same.
 
You may have a problem in separating the powerhead from the exhaust housing as the gasket may stick to both surfaces & it is hard to get in there to separate them. If this happens I show in one of my articles a trick to help start this procedure with a screwdriver & where to drive it in between the flanges in an effort to separate things. 

It may be best before trying to remove the powerhead to drop the lower unit as if you were replacing the water pump impeller, as it is easier to work on things & also easier to align the driveshaft into the crankshaft splines after the powerhead is installed first.
 
 In one of my articles I tell about removing the 2 outside attachment bolts that hold these mount so the exhaust housing. Also many times you will twist off the long internal 1/4" bolt. If this happens you will then need to remove the exhaust housing from the steering bracket (as the twisted off threads will now be in the steering bracket boss). This removal is no big deal as you simply remove the lower mount cover & the lower rubber mounting blocks will fall out & the two housings will come apart. This bolt does not need to go into the steering boss as deep as it was originally. I have found that if it does break, it will be at the threads. Just re-tap the hole down to the broken bolt with the next size (5/16") & put in a shorter bolt. You will have to drill the center metal upper mount tube out to accept the 5/16" bolt however.

LeeRoy

*****************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 2
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 9.9/15

Firstly, may I congratulate you on such a comprehensive article which I have found very useful in solving problems with a 9.9 sailmaster I have picked up. The detailed information has been brilliant in sorting things out as the engine I bought has turned out to be a bit of lemon. It was bought on E-Bay as a last minute deal so no time to view and see it test run. The last time I make that mistake! Been there-done that also, plus the fact that many of the sellers do not really know what they have.

It was not a long shaft as advertised but a Sailmaster, although at the time I did not know the difference, thanks to you I do now. It pumped no water and had no thermostat fitted when I began investigating further. The internals of the leg were so corroded that the water pipe was preventing the leg from separating. The shaft had been badly rebuilt and ground for the top gearbox seal and the impeller had given up the ghost.

The salt water had never been flushed so I decided to take the head off and despite lots of penetrating oil and gentle heat and persuasion the centre bolt on the transfer port side sheared off. Annoyingly the water jacket was in good shape and the barrels were spotless so I could have got away with it.
My question is, having removed the remainder of the seized bolt and lost part of the barrel thread, do you have any idea if the small lug area in the barrel is substantial enough to take a HeliCoil thread insert if I drill and tap it out. As I understand your question, the middle LH head bolt on the LH side looking forward is the one you are concerned about. I just looked at one of my disassemble blocks & yes it is thin inward to the water jacket, but there appears enough metal in the block to in stall a HeliCoil I have managed to salvage some of the thread but I am not happy it will be enough. The hole was packed with an epoxy metal filler with a greased bolt located in it as a first attempt and I will only know for sure when I try and torque down the head if that has worked. The epoxy may well hold since there is a water jacket between the bolt threads & the actual cylinder bore so the temperature would be at least at or below the 160 degrees that the thermostat is set at, & epoxy does not usually start deteriorating until about 300 degrees. I would be happier to tap and HeliCoil it if it will take it.
Congratulations on a brilliant , well written article.

I have managed to source the parts to convert it to a long shaft which is what I needed in the first place.

Mark    Surrey, England.

------------------------
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008
From: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 9.9/15

Sorry for the delay, but I have been away from the computer for a much looked forward to hunting trip that proved fruitless.

LeeRoy Wisner

*****************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:41 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 9.9 outboard articles

Just wanted to let you know your articles are fantastic. I have a similar background to you in that I am a do-it-yourselfer, . I am also very familiar with 2 stroke dirt bikes and rebuild and tune them routinely. and also have my machinist papers. Your articles are very in depth, and have helped me purchase a pristine 1983 Evinrude 9.9. I believe I have read all of your 9.9 articles and will keep them on hand as long as I have this little 9.9 It's been one of those "best purchase for the year" deals.
I do have one question for you which hopefully you could guide me forward on. This 1983 9.9 was hardly ever used. The paint is original and still shines, no paint missing from the prop. I pulled the plugs and looked in at the pistons, and there was no carbon at all! I can see the centre drill mark in the middle. Compression is 120#s in both cylinders
Anyways, the motor runs great, idles perfect, starts easy and revs up well. Needs a 1/2 pull to restart when warm. Seems to pump lots of water, and the block does not get hotter than one would expect. The motor pulls my little 12ft aluminum boat up to 31 kph, as clocked by my GPS. However, every once and a while after the motor has been running wide open for 10 minutes or so, the motor will decide to just pick up and go another 5kph faster (to 36kph). Almost sounds like the motor is running leaner. Nothing has changed, the throttle is still wide open. The extra speed continues until I have to slow the boat down. It does not run out of gas or sputter at this new higher speed. I can't figure this one out. It does only occur when I am the only passenger in the boat.
I have checked throttle cam timing with stator
Proper engagement of the twist grip gears (although the twist grip pointer is in-between shift and start when turned to max throttle in neutral)
Proper spark plug gap
Fresh gas and oil
Any suggestions? if not, again excellent articles

Thanks   Cam
----------------

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 1:19 PM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 9.9 outboard articles

It sounds to me that there may be some debris floating in the carburetor & at some point it dislodges allowing more of a fuel flow. On those old carbs, there is a small aluminum soft plug covering a passage hole. If you can not find anything inside, ice pick out the plug, & check out under it. You can usually reuse it without buying a whole kit by tapping it back into the hole & J-B welding the hole shut that you made with the ice pick.
 
Another thought might be that the timing plate bearing has collapsed to some degree & or someone has oiled it thinking it needs lubricant. This really needs to be dry & can be reshaped in a micro-wave as I mention. What it could be doing is that after a while when the motor warms up the centrifugal force of the flywheel against the ignition/charging coils may rotate the timing plate beyond where they were at the end of the twist grips movement, thus giving you more speed???
 
Sorry for the delay, but the wife & I were on a 2+ week vacation/business trip.
 
LeeRoy Wisner
---------------

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 7:51 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 9.9 outboard articles

Excellent, I will take the carb apart and look at the timing plate bearing. I'll let you know how it turns out

Thanks again LeeRoy

Cam

******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Johnson 10hp Sea Horse prop bearing & seal question

Hi!

I am trying to replace the leaking seals propshaft seals on an old 1960 Johnson Sea Horse 10hp and have a question. Is there another "O" ring seal INSIDE the bearing in the brass that needs replacing (see the attached photo)? There's a slotted area in the inside of the brass piece that holds the shaft but it doesn't appear to have ever had anything in it? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

PS: I found your website to be very helpful for a rank amateur like myself. Keep up the good work!

Thanks!    Hal    Oxford, GA

--------------
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:08 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Johnson 10hp Sea Horse prop bearing & seal question

I have not had one of those motors apart in years, but it seems logical that you are right in that it may well need a O-Ring there.
 
On many of those old motors, you may have to improvise when things get worn out or parts missing.  A couple of places I have found that carry O-Rings are either automotive or plumbing supply stores.
 
One time I even repacked a lower unit with the wheel bearing grease that you use on boat trailers when the seals were worn out & not available.
 
Sorry for the delay as the wife & I were on vacation to see her sister & a business trip for over 2 weeks.
 
LeeRoy Wisner

******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:39 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: Thanks

I recently bought a 25' sailboat that has a 9.9 Johnson Sailmaster 1984 model year. Your web site has saved me much time and anxiety.. Thank you for your time. do you know of any source for the owners manual on CD for this unit or a download site or an inexpensive printed one? I have searched ebay with no luck.

thanks again bob    atlantic beach fl
---------------------

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:58 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: Thanks


You do not need an owners manual, as it only gives basics. I have never seen an owners or service manual on a CD or even a download. These service manuals were in a time when computers were not really known & I apparently am the only one interested in helping.   I however would not consider doing a CD or even an addition to my articles as these service manuals are extensive, (books are about 5/16" thick with foldouts for electrical & water flow schematics).

You may have to bite the bullet & step back in time & purchase a service manual off e-Bay. Owners manuals on e-Bay are cheaper, but you have to keep looking as the offerings change weekly. 
 
LeeRoy Wisner

******************************************
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:16 AM
To: Twin Pine
Subject: (no subject)

Hi Lee Roy, I recently bought a couple of Evinrude 9.9s'.   One is a 1989 10XP with 15HP conversion with its casing blown apart and the other is an 1978 Belgian Model with its tiller handle missing,  can you tell me how to set up the timing plate to a start position so I can kick-start the brute up?  I have read your work on these engines and it is refreshing to know that there are still experts out there who are willing to take the time and effort to make life easier for the great unwashed,  I can assure you it is very much appreciated from this humble blacksmith in the Scottish borders,  hope you can help me with this request. All the best and

Kindest Regards    Eddy from Scotland 

PS I will probably sell the XP for spares engine casings are extortionate.
-------------------------------------------

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:48 AM
From: Twin Pine
Subject: RE: (no subject)

If you are having problems locating a start position on your twist grip throttle setting, or if you have a remote throttle, a method of locating the timing "START" position would be to advance the timing plate to where the carburetor arm roller just touches the timing plate cam, then advance it about 3/8" (9-10mm) more. This positions the timing & throttle at about the start position in the carburetor.
 
LeeRoy Wisner

******************************************

 

 

 

I am still learning about some things pertaining to these motors even after 25 years+, so information may change  often.   I do wish to thank some of the e-Bay sellers from whom I borrowed some of the above motor pictures.

 

Copyright © 2009 - 2021   LeeRoy Wisner  All Rights Reserved

Back to the Main Ramblings Page

 

 

Originally stated 01-16-2009, Last Updated 02-24-2021
Contact the author